Warning: this post talks about the discussion of religion and touches on the issue of religion itself, but will not be about religion. Consider yourself forewarned however........
I wonder if Greg realizes just how patronizing and insulting his comments on religion are to some of his religious listeners (chiefly me here). While I understand that the postshow is really just the two of you shooting some shit, y'all still have listeners. Greg's comments in the most recent postshow were among some of his worst. His implication (and I could be wrong here, if so I apologize) about atheists who have "sacred" items do so even if they have logical minds. Not really that big a deal yet in the way it was presented, the comparison was that people who are religious have illogical minds. As I said, you may not have intended for that to be your comparison, and you may not have intended it to come across that way but it did.
Second, his point about religion being turned into a business is false and somewhat offensive. There are many churches and some other places of worship that may have a business like interest and there are some that do operate very much like a business (Creflo Dollar anyone?). However, I think what Greg fails to recognize, or wants to recognize, is that like anything else these days, an organization needs a way to generate money to stay afloat. Period. That faiths or places of worship can naturally tap into a much larger and connected market place may make people assume that it is purely profit driven enterprise but by and large, this is simply not the case. I won't even go into non-Western religions or faiths which have no attachment to money, nor will I even brink up the Amish, which would be an example much closer to home for the two of you and show that religion is not solely a business. If I may, I'd also like to present Occam's Razor here for Greg and allow him to determine which seems most logical. Millions (if not billions) of men and women have devoted themselves to an organization that speaks to a higher power because a) they feel it is the best way to lead their lives or b) there is a slim chance that somehow one of them will be able to be in a position of controlling or getting access to that revenue, when the chances of doing that are almost none, and the sacrifices that require are much more than what it would take to try and create your own "conglomerate", as Greg described religion (an inaccurate way to use "conglomerate" but I digress, it is unbecoming of me to point that out from someone who nitpicks about pedantry on other podcasts).
Look I really wouldn't mind if Greg offered something particularly interesting to say about religion, or could even properly digest or repeat either atheist or religious philosophy and theology. Instead what he ends up doing is bastardizing both, not accurately describing either, and insulting one group. For all his complaints about blanket statements from other podcasts or shows, he has a terrible habit of doing that himself. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for all the complaints Greg has about flaws in other shows' reasoning, he is guilty of all that himself. The other problem is that while Greg has said he is often just trying to present his own opinion and nothing else, he regularly assumes a haughty, condescending tone when topics arise, and in doing so, he ends up presenting his claims as factual. I can understand if this is not his intention. But, if he isn't trying to do that, he at least deserves to know that that is how he is coming across. Instead of exposing his ignorance on so many topics (which he does adroitly), he should probably refrain from discussing them, saving him some face and preventing him from insulting listeners.
And look, to a certain extent I don't care what y'all talk about in the postshow, I'm not trying to direct that. I just thought it might be--something--to hear a listener's take on what is otherwise a fantastic show.
Regardless of what happens I will remain a friend of the show, tell others to listen, and continue to donate. If nothing else the mainshow is worth supporting. The only thing I won't listen to is any Lost discussions lasting more than 2 minutes.
Ed
I appreciate your comments,
I appreciate your comments, Ed, and it is not my intention to insult those who are religious. However, I think you can tell particularly with the post-show, we have a lot of alcohol in us and that tends to make us (or at least me) more boisterous and condescending-sounding (at least, more-so than usual.)
My remarks about religion being a business were intended as shorthand. I do not mean that religion is merely business and nothing else, but rather that institutions that form around religions eventually end up being too big to be anything but a business. To paraphrase Eric Hoffer, "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."
And when I'm thinking of religion as business, I think of, for instance, the Vatican and the way in which the Catholic church controlled much of the world for centuries. I apologize for the misunderstanding - I did not mean to imply that any religion, no matter what is is, is simply a business, nothing more.
I guess I didn't make my point very well, but what I was trying to say was that humans have a natural tendency to make things sacred, even if they think - as a typical atheist does - that they are beyond such thoughts. My point was that this is categorically not true, and any atheist who says they don't hold things sacred is either lying or mistaken. So what I was trying to say was not that atheists have more logical minds, but in fact that they are as affected by this as any religious person is. They just focus their thoughts on the sacred on other things. So what I was trying to get at was not that "all religious people are just crazy irrational people, and the atheists are the rational ones." Not at all. If anything, I wanted to present the opposite - that if atheists insist that faith and having things be sacred is irrational, then they (including me) have to admit they are just as guilty as anyone else.
Now, I make no apologies for being an atheist, and I personally do not believe in the validity of any religious text, but if anything, this idea and line of thinking from the podcast I was referring to helped me understand that under it all, the thought processes of an atheist vs. a theist or a religious individual are not at all different, only the focus is different.
Cool
I kind of forgot that you were drinking beer and we all say shit when drunk. Its really weird being sober and listening to people drink in the way the show works. You (or at least I) forget that our thought processes are wildly different. Despite being a devout believer I don't think anyone needs to believe one way or the other. We're all given free will, use it how you will, no need to apologize for any beliefs.
The claim about the Vatican controlling the world came about from reasons other than being a business or business oriented but that is neither here nor there. The point is, I think religion, the entire intellectual package of it, is misunderstood by most people, both believers and non believers. Its just an easy target and an easy cop out for people.
Devil's (of course) advocate
Poor Greg. You cop so much flak, mate!
I sometimes think I'm the only one who loves when Greg gets his rant on. It's refreshing, in a world of carefully edited soundbites, and pre-prepared PC statements all sounding the same and saying nothing, to hear a good, off-the-cuff, un-researched argument, discussion, or rant. It's made all the funnier by booze and controversial topics. I often listen in the evenings, when out for a walk. I've been stared at by passers by as I chuckle out loud at some of the comments. It's great. It completely takes me away from the drab world if routing, networks, firewalls, and servers where I spend my day. The pre and post shows are the bits which mean the most to me (and the reason I donate), as the main show, while great, is filled with lots of talk about beers I just can't taste. Having been a listener from show #1, I feel like Jeff and Greg have become "old friends", and it's great to virtually catch up with them via the pre and post shows. I hope they never feel the need to censor themselves or their opinions, no matter how much I might agree or disagree with what they've said. To do so would take away from their personalities.
You don't have to like it, but please don't ask them to change! :)
On religion, I've said plenty in the past so I'll just stick with this.
As a libertarian, I respect everyone's freedom to believe whatever they like, so long as it's not enforced on me. As a rational objectivist, I just don't get why anyone WOULD believe in anything which isn't self evident.